Discussion:
[OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Derek Stewart
2014-05-21 13:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.

Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
--
Regards,

Derek
jon
2014-05-21 13:20:59 UTC
Permalink
What are your requirements, in terms of cost and build volume? Do you
want to purchase a fully built printer, build a kit, or build one
yourself out of printed parts and off-the-shelf parts that you
purchase? Are you happy just printing PLA, or do you want/need to print
ABS and/or Nylon?

Current printer designs often have printed parts, and those parts are
modeled using a variety of tools, including OpenSCAD.

This might be best dealt with off of this forum, since it is not really
on topic.

Jon
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
tp3
2014-05-21 13:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Stewart
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
Yes, some quite impressive examples are shown here:
http://www.openscad.org/gallery.html




-----
-- Torsten
--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8051.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Robert Jaquiss
2014-05-21 17:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Hello:

I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list, but here are a few sites.

3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/

3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/

Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/

Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/


I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid trying to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I would rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.

Regards,

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: openscad-***@rocklinux.org [mailto:openscad-***@rocklinux.org] On Behalf Of Derek Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
To: ***@rocklinux.org
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer

Hi,

Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.

Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
--
Regards,

Derek
Derek Stewart
2014-05-21 17:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Thanks for the information, I am sorry that you all think this is
straying from the List Topic.

But I only found out about OpenSCAD through looking at 3D Printer Web Site.

I thought that OpenSCAD could produce the 3D model and send it to a 3D
Printer.

Looks like I am in the wrong place.

Regards,

Derek
Post by Robert Jaquiss
I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list, but here are a few sites.
3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/
3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/
Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/
Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/
I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid trying to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I would rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.
Regards,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
Robert Harris
2014-05-21 17:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Derek - OpenSCAD can certainly produce files that can be used for 3D
printing.

Although they first have to be "sliced" before the printer can use them.

There are several parts for 3D printers that have been designed using
OpenSCAD.

Look on Thingiverse.

However this forum is really for the modelling software, and how to make
models, not for 3D printing per se.

In some respects your question was like asking what the best printer is, on
a Microsoft Office forum. Office certainly outputs to a printer ... but
that's not what the forum is about or for. On the other hand if you wanted
to know how to adjust the formatting etc, then it would be the right place
to go.

Personally I use an Ultimaker 2 and love it. I would concur that if you
don't have a great deal of experience building stuff (and/or don;t have the
appropriate tools) then your best bet is to buy a readymade printer. Or at
the very least a very easy kit. There are a number of reasonably cheap
options out there these days,but the best place to get the info is on 3D
printer sites like he ones that have already been mentioned.

One important thing I would say is that home/hobby 3D printing technology
is evolving so fast that it is completely pointless to read articles or
reviews that are more than about 6-12 months old.

Robert
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Thanks for the information, I am sorry that you all think this is
straying from the List Topic.
But I only found out about OpenSCAD through looking at 3D Printer Web Site.
I thought that OpenSCAD could produce the 3D model and send it to a 3D
Printer.
Looks like I am in the wrong place.
Regards,
Derek
Post by Robert Jaquiss
I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list, but
here are a few sites.
Post by Robert Jaquiss
3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/
3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/
Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/
Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/
I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid trying
to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I would
rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.
Post by Robert Jaquiss
Regards,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
--
----------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Sloan
2014-05-21 18:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Here’s how I use OpenSCAD for 3D printing…

http://3DPrintLab.cis.uab.edu

--
Kenneth Sloan
Derek - OpenSCAD can certainly produce files that can be used for 3D printing.
Although they first have to be "sliced" before the printer can use them.
There are several parts for 3D printers that have been designed using OpenSCAD.
Look on Thingiverse.
However this forum is really for the modelling software, and how to make models, not for 3D printing per se.
In some respects your question was like asking what the best printer is, on a Microsoft Office forum. Office certainly outputs to a printer ... but that's not what the forum is about or for. On the other hand if you wanted to know how to adjust the formatting etc, then it would be the right place to go.
Personally I use an Ultimaker 2 and love it. I would concur that if you don't have a great deal of experience building stuff (and/or don;t have the appropriate tools) then your best bet is to buy a readymade printer. Or at the very least a very easy kit. There are a number of reasonably cheap options out there these days,but the best place to get the info is on 3D printer sites like he ones that have already been mentioned.
One important thing I would say is that home/hobby 3D printing technology is evolving so fast that it is completely pointless to read articles or reviews that are more than about 6-12 months old.
Robert
Hi,
Thanks for the information, I am sorry that you all think this is
straying from the List Topic.
But I only found out about OpenSCAD through looking at 3D Printer Web Site.
I thought that OpenSCAD could produce the 3D model and send it to a 3D
Printer.
Looks like I am in the wrong place.
Regards,
Derek
Post by Robert Jaquiss
I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list, but here are a few sites.
3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/
3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/
Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/
Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/
I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid trying to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I would rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.
Regards,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
--
----------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Kenneth Sloan
2014-05-21 18:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Not at all.

It depends on your printer.

OpenSCAD can “produce the 3D model” and output it as an .stl file.
Many printers come with proprietary (or not)
software which will read .stl files and “send the job to the printer”.

The workflow for many of the users of my 3DPrintLab consists of:

a) OpenSCAD -> .stl
b) netfabb (free download) to verify and perhaps repair the model
c) proprietary printer software (either MakerBot or StrataSys printers)

c) varies, depending on the target printer

b) is constant - this is a very useful sanity check

a) varies all over the lot. There are a plethora of 3D design tools - OpenSCAD
is the one I recommend to beginners. The basic requirement is that the
3D design tool can (by hook, or by crook) produce .stl files.

My lab accepts .stl files as the default input format. We can handle other formats,
but we charge extra for that. We run everything past netfabb (if repair is necessary,
we do that…and charge extra). And, of course, we feed the (verified) .stl to
the appropriate proprietary printer software.

So - yes…OpenSCAD is worth your attention as a way to create 3D models. What you
do next depends on your printer.


--
Kenneth Sloan
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Thanks for the information, I am sorry that you all think this is
straying from the List Topic.
But I only found out about OpenSCAD through looking at 3D Printer Web Site.
I thought that OpenSCAD could produce the 3D model and send it to a 3D
Printer.
Looks like I am in the wrong place.
Regards,
Derek
Post by Robert Jaquiss
I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list, but here are a few sites.
3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/
3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/
Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/
Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/
I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid trying to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I would rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.
Regards,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Ari Diacou
2014-05-21 19:14:24 UTC
Permalink
I built mine from a kit. I got the hardware working but my software still
doesn't work. It took me about 40 hours to get it built, and I put in 40
hours of troubleshooting (mostly software) before I mostly gave up. It is a
VERY difficult project to build from scratch. Looking back, I should have
ponied up the extra $300-600 and bought an assembled printer.
Post by Kenneth Sloan
Not at all.
It depends on your printer.
OpenSCAD can “produce the 3D model” and output it as an .stl file.
Many printers come with proprietary (or not)
software which will read .stl files and “send the job to the printer”.
a) OpenSCAD -> .stl
b) netfabb (free download) to verify and perhaps repair the model
c) proprietary printer software (either MakerBot or StrataSys printers)
c) varies, depending on the target printer
b) is constant - this is a very useful sanity check
a) varies all over the lot. There are a plethora of 3D design tools - OpenSCAD
is the one I recommend to beginners. The basic requirement is that the
3D design tool can (by hook, or by crook) produce .stl files.
My lab accepts .stl files as the default input format. We can handle other formats,
but we charge extra for that. We run everything past netfabb (if repair is necessary,
we do that
and charge extra). And, of course, we feed the (verified) .stl
to
the appropriate proprietary printer software.
So - yes
OpenSCAD is worth your attention as a way to create 3D models.
What you
do next depends on your printer.
--
Kenneth Sloan
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Thanks for the information, I am sorry that you all think this is
straying from the List Topic.
But I only found out about OpenSCAD through looking at 3D Printer Web
Site.
Post by Derek Stewart
I thought that OpenSCAD could produce the 3D model and send it to a 3D
Printer.
Looks like I am in the wrong place.
Regards,
Derek
Post by Robert Jaquiss
I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list, but
here are a few sites.
Post by Derek Stewart
Post by Robert Jaquiss
3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/
3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/
Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/
Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/
I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid trying
to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I would
rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.
Post by Derek Stewart
Post by Robert Jaquiss
Regards,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Joseph Lenox
2014-05-21 21:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Your question is better suited for either the irc channel #reprap on
freenode, or the reprap forums (google!) or the reprap wiki.
Post by Kenneth Sloan
Not at all.
It depends on your printer.
OpenSCAD can “produce the 3D model” and output it as an .stl file.
Many printers come with proprietary (or not)
software which will read .stl files and “send the job to the printer”.
a) OpenSCAD -> .stl
b) netfabb (free download) to verify and perhaps repair the model
c) proprietary printer software (either MakerBot or StrataSys printers)
c) varies, depending on the target printer
b) is constant - this is a very useful sanity check
a) varies all over the lot. There are a plethora of 3D design tools - OpenSCAD
is the one I recommend to beginners. The basic requirement is that the
3D design tool can (by hook, or by crook) produce .stl files.
My lab accepts .stl files as the default input format. We can handle other formats,
but we charge extra for that. We run everything past netfabb (if repair is necessary,
we do that
and charge extra). And, of course, we feed the (verified) .stl
to
the appropriate proprietary printer software.
So - yes
OpenSCAD is worth your attention as a way to create 3D models.
What you
do next depends on your printer.
--
Kenneth Sloan
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Thanks for the information, I am sorry that you all think this is
straying from the List Topic.
But I only found out about OpenSCAD through looking at 3D Printer Web
Site.
Post by Derek Stewart
I thought that OpenSCAD could produce the 3D model and send it to a 3D
Printer.
Looks like I am in the wrong place.
Regards,
Derek
Post by Robert Jaquiss
I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list, but
here are a few sites.
Post by Derek Stewart
Post by Robert Jaquiss
3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/
3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/
Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/
Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/
I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid trying
to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I would
rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.
Post by Derek Stewart
Post by Robert Jaquiss
Regards,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Ari Diacou
2014-05-21 22:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Thanks guys. Wasn't trying to deviate the thread, just giving my rationale
for my opinion of kits. Thanks for the responses though - I've been to
#reprap and the forums, and I'm pretty sure I haven't tried hard enough to
fix it. But maybe when I'm ready to give it another real shot, Ill start
another thread.
Post by Joseph Lenox
Your question is better suited for either the irc channel #reprap on
freenode, or the reprap forums (google!) or the reprap wiki.
Post by Kenneth Sloan
Not at all.
It depends on your printer.
OpenSCAD can “produce the 3D model” and output it as an .stl file.
Many printers come with proprietary (or not)
software which will read .stl files and “send the job to the printer”.
a) OpenSCAD -> .stl
b) netfabb (free download) to verify and perhaps repair the model
c) proprietary printer software (either MakerBot or StrataSys printers)
c) varies, depending on the target printer
b) is constant - this is a very useful sanity check
a) varies all over the lot. There are a plethora of 3D design tools - OpenSCAD
is the one I recommend to beginners. The basic requirement is that the
3D design tool can (by hook, or by crook) produce .stl files.
My lab accepts .stl files as the default input format. We can handle other formats,
but we charge extra for that. We run everything past netfabb (if repair is necessary,
we do that
and charge extra). And, of course, we feed the (verified)
.stl to
the appropriate proprietary printer software.
So - yes
OpenSCAD is worth your attention as a way to create 3D models.
What you
do next depends on your printer.
--
Kenneth Sloan
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Thanks for the information, I am sorry that you all think this is
straying from the List Topic.
But I only found out about OpenSCAD through looking at 3D Printer Web
Site.
Post by Derek Stewart
I thought that OpenSCAD could produce the 3D model and send it to a 3D
Printer.
Looks like I am in the wrong place.
Regards,
Derek
Post by Robert Jaquiss
I know this is seriously straying from the topic of this list,
but here are a few sites.
Post by Derek Stewart
Post by Robert Jaquiss
3d Printing for beginners
http://3dprintingforbeginners.com/
3ders.org - 3D printer and 3D printing news, trends and resources.
http://www.3ders.org/
Make Zine an online magazine for makers
http://www.makezine.com/
Maker Shed A source of kits and supplies.
http://www.makershed.com/
I suggest that unless you are a very skilled hobbyist, you avoid
trying to build a 3d printer from scratch. Kits are a better option, but I
would rather pull a unit from a box, load filament and start printing.
Post by Derek Stewart
Post by Robert Jaquiss
Regards,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [OpenSCAD] 3D Printer
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Alan Cox
2014-05-22 14:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Sloan
a) OpenSCAD -> .stl
b) netfabb (free download) to verify and perhaps repair the model
c) proprietary printer software (either MakerBot or StrataSys printers)
I almost never use b) these days. Modern OpenSCAD is both pretty good at
generating valid objects in the first place and usually knows itself when
it's got a problem.

The big problem with OpenSCAD I find is that people take the OpenSCAD
output and run it through s**tware convertors to stl float formats that
don't do proper disambiguation. Sadly there seem to be a lot of them
about and some of the printer tools only accept float format, or do
broken float conversions and wreck your mesh.

Alan
Alan Cox
2014-05-22 14:37:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 21 May 2014 14:11:18 +0100
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
Only comments I'd add given this has been answered already:

I spent some time carefully analysing it having part built a printer for
fun when the rest of life interfered. Once I took time and hassle into
account I couldn't make owning a printer beat just using Shapeways, even
for a preassembled printer, even if someone handed me a free rep-rap
style printer.

(Not that for the most part IMHO a pre-assembled one is a help.. you'll
need to know how to maintain and repair current designs anyway)
Robert Harris
2014-05-22 15:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Alan - you make a good point regarding Shapeways - but not (IMO) for truly
first stage prototyping. Not sure what the turnaround time is but it used
to be about 14 days (including postage).

I've found that a lot of what I've designed on OpenSCAD simply doesn't work
the way I think it will (particularly with gearing and complex mechanisms
etc), so being able to print and test trial models quickly and relatively
cheaply is important to me. On the other hand for a "finished product"
prototype (if that isn't a tautology), Shapeways offers a lot (such as
better finishing, a range of materials etc) that my own printer isn't
really up to.
Post by Alan Cox
On Wed, 21 May 2014 14:11:18 +0100
Post by Derek Stewart
Hi,
Can anyone recommend a good 3D Printer.
Can the parts to the printer be modelled in OpenSCAD.
I spent some time carefully analysing it having part built a printer for
fun when the rest of life interfered. Once I took time and hassle into
account I couldn't make owning a printer beat just using Shapeways, even
for a preassembled printer, even if someone handed me a free rep-rap
style printer.
(Not that for the most part IMHO a pre-assembled one is a help.. you'll
need to know how to maintain and repair current designs anyway)
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
--
----------------------------------------------------
MichaelAtOz
2014-05-22 21:29:54 UTC
Permalink
I agree, Shapeways is based on volume of material used, there does not seem
to be the idea of in-fill which FDM printers use. Thus, for example, a model
I print, where I can set in-fill to a low say 25%, it will be mostly air and
use little filament ~$2, but to print on Shapeways was ~$50. Shapeways, etc,
can produce better finishes, but well tuned home printers are getting pretty
good, and turn around is under your control.

I have a printrbot, early version, it is very Reprap, where you need to get
your hands dirty, but they also have pre-built models, and the new metal
printrbot looks pretty good. They have (now) good customer support and
ethics.

I have no experience with others and I'm sure others are good too.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8101.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Kenneth Sloan
2014-05-22 22:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Look around. Shapeways is not the only game in town (although it is one that I
recommend, if you need what only they can provide). The alternative is
not always all the way down to “home printer”. Staples just announced
a service that looks interesting (but I haven’t explored the details).

We provide service to our campus, plus a few local businesses. We print
primarily FDM (our standard setting is “high density sparse”) and charge
$20 per cubic inch. Almost exclusively ABS, and the vast majority of
jobs are printed in vanilla “Ivory”. For local folk, we often provide 1-3 day
turnaround (depending mostly on the size of the job). [note that the savings
on using a sparse “infill” are somewhat offset by the requirement to use
a support material during printing; our customers pay for both the model material
AND the support material - Shapeways only does “solid” - but you don’t pay for support.
We print many parts that canNOT be 3D printed (in FDM) without soluble support material]

This is not “cheap” - but 1-3 days beats USPS by a large margin.

If you had $X to spend on a “home printer”, you could do a lot of printing
at $20 per cubic inch for the same $X. And, by then, there may well be
a better printer to buy. Prices are plummeting - only beware of the
“fly by night” outfits.

One of my favorite “cost saving” stories is a fast prototyping project where
the engineer went through 3 iterations of prototype in ABS before committing
to fabricating the part in aluminum (in a traditional machine shop). The
prototypes were done on 10-hour turnaround for $150 each. The aluminum version
took 3 weeks and cost $1000. Do the math.

http://3DPrintLab.cis.uab.edu

--
Kenneth Sloan
Post by MichaelAtOz
I agree, Shapeways is based on volume of material used, there does not seem
to be the idea of in-fill which FDM printers use. Thus, for example, a model
I print, where I can set in-fill to a low say 25%, it will be mostly air and
use little filament ~$2, but to print on Shapeways was ~$50. Shapeways, etc,
can produce better finishes, but well tuned home printers are getting pretty
good, and turn around is under your control.
I have a printrbot, early version, it is very Reprap, where you need to get
your hands dirty, but they also have pre-built models, and the new metal
printrbot looks pretty good. They have (now) good customer support and
ethics.
I have no experience with others and I'm sure others are good too.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8101.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Robert Harris
2014-05-22 23:05:48 UTC
Permalink
I think it's great that you open up your service to local businesses.

Unfortunately the major state university in my town is pretty unhelpful and
unfriendly to those not on campus or affiliated with the University in some
way. (I know that there are local businesses that have great relationships
with the University ... but they're all run by graduates of the university.
As an out of towner I'm given short shrift.)

As for anywhere else in town ... I'm not in a major metropolitan area (the
University is the major employer by a long long way). I am a member of
several other lists and I always find it very interesting to note how far
apart the perspective is of people that live in or near greater
metropolitan areas of say 500,000+ compared with the large number of people
that live in "rural cities" of 100,000 or so. At some point the
demographics mean that there is a threshold below which a bunch of "niche"
services and shops disappears (of course in my town the population is about
125K of which over 50K are students ... so that alters the demographics
even more. The nearest "large" city is 2+ hours away.)

It'll be interesting to see what Staples does. I assume it'll be a
centralised thing. I personally wouldn't trust any of the local employees
to run a 3D printer - they do a poor enough job binding books etc as it is.
If it is centralised, I can't see it being any improvement on Shapeways -
with the same problems and benefits. I suppose a local shop could afford to
install the very expensive Stratasys and 3D systems machines, but from what
I have heard (I haven't had any experience myself), they're still pretty
finicky to deal with.

I suppose it all depends on what you're using your printer for too. Just
out of curiosity I weighed the most recent stuff I've printed (last month
or so) - and it comes to about 200 grams, just this month. That's about 166
cubic cm or 10 cubic inches. At $200 for my little things I fear you are
still too expensive for me (compared to the cost of a simple FDM printer) -
but something that might be worthwhile once I've worked out what will and
won't work!
Post by Kenneth Sloan
Look around. Shapeways is not the only game in town (although it is one that I
recommend, if you need what only they can provide). The alternative is
not always all the way down to “home printer”. Staples just announced
a service that looks interesting (but I haven’t explored the details).
We provide service to our campus, plus a few local businesses. We print
primarily FDM (our standard setting is “high density sparse”) and charge
$20 per cubic inch. Almost exclusively ABS, and the vast majority of
jobs are printed in vanilla “Ivory”. For local folk, we often provide 1-3
day
turnaround (depending mostly on the size of the job). [note that the savings
on using a sparse “infill” are somewhat offset by the requirement to use
a support material during printing; our customers pay for both the model material
AND the support material - Shapeways only does “solid” - but you don’t pay
for support.
We print many parts that canNOT be 3D printed (in FDM) without soluble support material]
This is not “cheap” - but 1-3 days beats USPS by a large margin.
If you had $X to spend on a “home printer”, you could do a lot of printing
at $20 per cubic inch for the same $X. And, by then, there may well be
a better printer to buy. Prices are plummeting - only beware of the
“fly by night” outfits.
One of my favorite “cost saving” stories is a fast prototyping project
where
the engineer went through 3 iterations of prototype in ABS before committing
to fabricating the part in aluminum (in a traditional machine shop). The
prototypes were done on 10-hour turnaround for $150 each. The aluminum version
took 3 weeks and cost $1000. Do the math.
http://3DPrintLab.cis.uab.edu
--
Kenneth Sloan
I agree, Shapeways is based on volume of material used, there does not seem
to be the idea of in-fill which FDM printers use. Thus, for example, a model
I print, where I can set in-fill to a low say 25%, it will be mostly air and
use little filament ~$2, but to print on Shapeways was ~$50. Shapeways, etc,
can produce better finishes, but well tuned home printers are getting pretty
good, and turn around is under your control.
I have a printrbot, early version, it is very Reprap, where you need to get
your hands dirty, but they also have pre-built models, and the new metal
printrbot looks pretty good. They have (now) good customer support and
ethics.
I have no experience with others and I'm sure others are good too.
--
http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8101.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
--
----------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Sloan
2014-05-22 23:24:47 UTC
Permalink
My understanding is that the “standard Staples setup” will include 2 “hobby level” machines, perhaps
customer operated and 1 “industrial strength” machine run by employees. I also believe they will
offer a “scan your head and put it on an action figure” service. Maybe they got the idea from “Big Bang Theory”?

If pressed, I think I could open a store-front service with a moderate-quality, small-build envelope StrataSys printer for under $20k to cover the first year of capital investment and maintenance. We find these printers to be much more reliable than, say, a hobby-level printer costing $3000. But, the market changes daily. If there were enough business to
support it, I’d very much prefer to have a printer that could do different colors (not necessarily more than 1 color
at a time) AND I would prefer to have multiple printers, for reliability. My lab has 3 StrataSys printers (plus a Replicator 2 for PLA work - my medical colleagues are not interested in implants made of ABS…)

We also have two scanners (one inexpensive, one NOT) and a couple of computers. I believe I could replicate this
for under $100k. Add in renovation costs…and there you are.

The problem with this as a business plan is that you will probably be able to replicate this for under $50k in 2 years.
Also, there’s a limited market for rather boring looking ABS parts. Engineers and scientists love them - but end-user consumers are not impressed. For other technologies, my gut feeling is that you would spend as much on “post-processing” (in space, equipment, and expertise) as you do on the 3D printing.

Now…if you want to talk METAL….add a zero, or 2, to the price tag.

I’m going to be very curious to see how the Staples setup works, and how long it lasts.

--
Kenneth Sloan
Post by Robert Harris
I think it's great that you open up your service to local businesses.
Unfortunately the major state university in my town is pretty unhelpful and unfriendly to those not on campus or affiliated with the University in some way. (I know that there are local businesses that have great relationships with the University ... but they're all run by graduates of the university. As an out of towner I'm given short shrift.)
As for anywhere else in town ... I'm not in a major metropolitan area (the University is the major employer by a long long way). I am a member of several other lists and I always find it very interesting to note how far apart the perspective is of people that live in or near greater metropolitan areas of say 500,000+ compared with the large number of people that live in "rural cities" of 100,000 or so. At some point the demographics mean that there is a threshold below which a bunch of "niche" services and shops disappears (of course in my town the population is about 125K of which over 50K are students ... so that alters the demographics even more. The nearest "large" city is 2+ hours away.)
It'll be interesting to see what Staples does. I assume it'll be a centralised thing. I personally wouldn't trust any of the local employees to run a 3D printer - they do a poor enough job binding books etc as it is. If it is centralised, I can't see it being any improvement on Shapeways - with the same problems and benefits. I suppose a local shop could afford to install the very expensive Stratasys and 3D systems machines, but from what I have heard (I haven't had any experience myself), they're still pretty finicky to deal with.
I suppose it all depends on what you're using your printer for too. Just out of curiosity I weighed the most recent stuff I've printed (last month or so) - and it comes to about 200 grams, just this month. That's about 166 cubic cm or 10 cubic inches. At $200 for my little things I fear you are still too expensive for me (compared to the cost of a simple FDM printer) - but something that might be worthwhile once I've worked out what will and won't work!
Look around. Shapeways is not the only game in town (although it is one that I
recommend, if you need what only they can provide). The alternative is
not always all the way down to “home printer”. Staples just announced
a service that looks interesting (but I haven’t explored the details).
We provide service to our campus, plus a few local businesses. We print
primarily FDM (our standard setting is “high density sparse”) and charge
$20 per cubic inch. Almost exclusively ABS, and the vast majority of
jobs are printed in vanilla “Ivory”. For local folk, we often provide 1-3 day
turnaround (depending mostly on the size of the job). [note that the savings
on using a sparse “infill” are somewhat offset by the requirement to use
a support material during printing; our customers pay for both the model material
AND the support material - Shapeways only does “solid” - but you don’t pay for support.
We print many parts that canNOT be 3D printed (in FDM) without soluble support material]
This is not “cheap” - but 1-3 days beats USPS by a large margin.
If you had $X to spend on a “home printer”, you could do a lot of printing
at $20 per cubic inch for the same $X. And, by then, there may well be
a better printer to buy. Prices are plummeting - only beware of the
“fly by night” outfits.
One of my favorite “cost saving” stories is a fast prototyping project where
the engineer went through 3 iterations of prototype in ABS before committing
to fabricating the part in aluminum (in a traditional machine shop). The
prototypes were done on 10-hour turnaround for $150 each. The aluminum version
took 3 weeks and cost $1000. Do the math.
http://3DPrintLab.cis.uab.edu
--
Kenneth Sloan
Post by MichaelAtOz
I agree, Shapeways is based on volume of material used, there does not seem
to be the idea of in-fill which FDM printers use. Thus, for example, a model
I print, where I can set in-fill to a low say 25%, it will be mostly air and
use little filament ~$2, but to print on Shapeways was ~$50. Shapeways, etc,
can produce better finishes, but well tuned home printers are getting pretty
good, and turn around is under your control.
I have a printrbot, early version, it is very Reprap, where you need to get
your hands dirty, but they also have pre-built models, and the new metal
printrbot looks pretty good. They have (now) good customer support and
ethics.
I have no experience with others and I'm sure others are good too.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8101.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
--
----------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Ed Nisley
2014-05-23 11:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Sloan
see how the Staples setup works, and how long it lasts
The part I don't understand about glue-gun technology in a retail
setting: throughput.

My rule of thumb says any interesting part takes at least an hour to
print, including setup & teardown, and the elapsed time goes up
dramatically from there as the parts get more complex. Folks on the
Makergear M2 forums routinely report four continuous days (!) of print
time for a single part, so I'm on the low end of the scale.

Running a retail printer for two hours on a single part, as I did
yesterday, means it must make enough money from that one part to
amortize the printer, supply the filament, and pay the labor. I have no
way to figure the hardware cost and I'll assume plastic is free, but I
think the labor cost will sink retail FDM printing all by itself.

Assume burdened labor is $40/hr, 15 minutes for setup/teardown, and 5
minutes for customer interaction. That says the labor *cost* starts at
$13, no matter how small it is, so the *price* starts at $25. And that
doesn't include the hardware or materials.

You can combine multiple parts into a single "job" to reduce the
per-part labor and increase throughput, if you don't care about external
surface finish and are willing to risk trashing *all* the parts due to a
single failure late in the job. In a retail setting, batching the day's
intake requires some moderately skilled labor and sets a turnaround time
of at least two days, which reminds me (unpleasantly) of photo
processing, back in the Bad Old Days.

Maybe they can pull it off, because MBAs! I'm perfectly content to be a
bystander in that game...
--
Ed
softsolder.com
Robert Harris
2014-05-23 13:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Nisley
Assume burdened labor is $40/hr, 15 minutes for setup/teardown, and 5
minutes for customer interaction. That says the labor *cost* starts at
$13, no matter how small it is, so the *price* starts at $25. And that
doesn't include the hardware or materials.
Except they'll employ $10/hr kids, the machines will be permanently down
due to lack of true problem solving skills (was it bed levelling, plastic
temperature, nozzle blockage etc etc), and nobody will use it. As Kenneth
Sloan said, maybe they'll make the hobby machines customer usable (and then
the machines will be down even longer and more permanently destroyed ...).
Having used Staples to copy and bind various theses, reports, busness docs
etc over the years, I am highly sceptical that they will be able to use
hobby FDM printers, and for the next few years at least, I suspect they'll
have a problem keeping the $20K machines going.

Plus what sort of support generation is the software going to use? (That's
currently my biggest problem).
I can just imagine lots of people being told "Sorry sir, we can't print
that there are too many overhangs".
Plus in order to get the required amount of throughput to pay for
everything you need a "killer app". Not many (or not enough, anyway) people
are going to sit down and learn OpenSCAD, or Solidworks. I can see it being
used for small broken plastic pieces around the home or the car, but in
that case there needs to be a good way for them to easily replicate it -
not to mention the plastic shrinkage issue.

Interesting to see how it all develops.
--
----------------------------------------------------
jon
2014-05-23 13:19:56 UTC
Permalink
The rumor, a year ago, was that Staples was going to install an Mcor
Iris in each store. No need for support. Material is paper. Output
surface can be arbitrarily colored. Google it. I think some of the
recent posts are unnecessarily pessimistic.
Post by Ed Nisley
Assume burdened labor is $40/hr, 15 minutes for setup/teardown, and 5
minutes for customer interaction. That says the labor *cost* starts at
$13, no matter how small it is, so the *price* starts at $25. And that
doesn't include the hardware or materials.
Except they'll employ $10/hr kids, the machines will be permanently
down due to lack of true problem solving skills (was it bed levelling,
plastic temperature, nozzle blockage etc etc), and nobody will use it.
As Kenneth Sloan said, maybe they'll make the hobby machines customer
usable (and then the machines will be down even longer and more
permanently destroyed ...). Having used Staples to copy and bind
various theses, reports, busness docs etc over the years, I am highly
sceptical that they will be able to use hobby FDM printers, and for
the next few years at least, I suspect they'll have a problem keeping
the $20K machines going.
Plus what sort of support generation is the software going to use?
(That's currently my biggest problem).
I can just imagine lots of people being told "Sorry sir, we can't
print that there are too many overhangs".
Plus in order to get the required amount of throughput to pay for
everything you need a "killer app". Not many (or not enough, anyway)
people are going to sit down and learn OpenSCAD, or Solidworks. I can
see it being used for small broken plastic pieces around the home or
the car, but in that case there needs to be a good way for them to
easily replicate it - not to mention the plastic shrinkage issue.
Interesting to see how it all develops.
--
----------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
Alan Cox
2014-05-23 14:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
Except they'll employ $10/hr kids, the machines will be permanently down
due to lack of true problem solving skills (was it bed levelling, plastic
They won't be using FDM machines. Staples have a good understanding of
how to operate an idiot powered office. The machines they are talking
about using are paper 3D printing based.
Post by Robert Harris
are going to sit down and learn OpenSCAD, or Solidworks. I can see it being
used for small broken plastic pieces around the home or the car, but in
that case there needs to be a good way for them to easily replicate it -
not to mention the plastic shrinkage issue.
Most people are not going to design custom parts. Most people are going
to print "cool" things they found on the internet - just like in 2D.

Alan
Robert Harris
2014-05-23 16:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Cox
Staples have a good understanding of
how to operate an idiot powered office.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Good enough for some things I
suppose, but I've had too many problems to trust them with anything truly
important. (I've had poor business cards, off centered binding, upside down
pages, pointer arrows printed on posters. All problems basically due to
incompetence or lack of care.)
Post by Alan Cox
The machines they are talking
about using are paper 3D printing based.
I made a very poor assumption based on the responses to this topic rather
than researching just what it was Staples was proposing to do. Sorry! Yes,
I can see 3D paper birthday cards being all the rage.

Which has absolutely no relationship to the plastic 3D printing etc that I
was talking about (and made a bad assumption about)!
-
----------------------------------------------------
Robert Jaquiss
2014-05-23 16:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Hello:

One issue with the paper laminating machines is that for stronger models, the finished model needs to be infiltrated with a material closely related to super glue. The last I knew, this was also true of the models produced on ZCorp machines.

Regards,

Robert
robboz4
2014-05-23 17:06:20 UTC
Permalink
This might be another alternative for getting prints done (sorry if it's been
mentioned before):

http://www.3dhubs.com

According to the write up, they verify ( as best as they can) the design
before putting it out to a local (to you) registered 3D printer owner for
printing.

I thought I might register my printer, but it's too busy on my own projects
at the moment.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8123.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
jon
2014-05-23 17:15:47 UTC
Permalink
I registered months ago and have not received a single job. But I live
in Vermont. We do have a 3D printing shop in Burlington, though.

Jon
Post by robboz4
This might be another alternative for getting prints done (sorry if it's been
http://www.3dhubs.com
According to the write up, they verify ( as best as they can) the design
before putting it out to a local (to you) registered 3D printer owner for
printing.
I thought I might register my printer, but it's too busy on my own projects
at the moment.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8123.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
http://openscad.org - https://flattr.com/thing/121566
marcosscriven
2014-05-24 08:51:42 UTC
Permalink
I can thoroughly recommend nophead's Mendel90. He sells a complete kit, and I
found putting it together pretty straightforward with the excellent manual
he provides with it.

All the printable parts are designed in OpenSCAD, so easily tweakable if you
want to modify later.

Even if budget isn't a concern, I am definitely of the opinion it's better
to put these things together yourself, as even with a commercial prebuilt
version you'll end up needing to fix it. If you've put it together yourself,
you'll have a lot more confidence taking it apart.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8135.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

jsc
2014-05-22 23:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Try makexyz.com. I have not used it, either as a client or a provider. People
with printers list their on-demand printing rates. You may find someone in
your neighborhood.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8106.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Dan Kirshner
2014-05-23 03:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Re: makexyz.com

I've found makexyz provides a good alternative to Shapeways. Shapeways has
met my needs well, but the turnaround time can be a bit slow if you're eager
to see results.

I've found local printer-owners with prices as low as or lower than
Shapeways, and I'm able to visit to pick up printed pieces -- often the next
day. I've noticed printers coming and going from makexyz, but in the San
Francisco area, at least, there have been ample choices.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8112.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
stonysmith
2014-05-23 03:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Thus, for example, a model I print, where I can set in-fill to a low say
25%, it will be mostly air and use little filament ~$2, but to print on
Shapeways was ~$50.

Very often, the areas which you selected to in-fill will turn out at
Shapeways to be solid (filled 100%). If you can make that same in-fill area
truly hollow (with an escape hole to the outside), you can often get the
Shapeways price down significantly.

A 25mm cube (one inch) will be $23 in Nylon (WSF) if you make it solid.
It'll be only $5 if you make the walls 0.7mm



--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-Printer-tp8049p8110.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Loading...